On March 18, 2020 Fred and I launched a weekly video discussion on the latest news and insights on COVID19. Around that time we launched an information page gathering as much data in one place for people to reference as we all faced this new world with SARS-CoV-2 virus running across our world
Fast forward 2 years and we have been producing this video weekly offering up the latest news and teasing out the impact this will have on businesses and each of us individually. We hope it has been useful but this will be the last episode and its one we look back to see what we learnt along the way.
Some of the things we learn include:
- Forcing people to do anything may not be the best option – incentives can and did work
- Don’t underestimate resistance
- Always look further than the headlines and beware of clickbait there to catch you not so much to provide information or knowledge
- Science is not linear in discovery and can get messy
- Above all – have fun with whatever you do
What did we miss?
What should we have learnt?
Raw Transcript
Nick van Terheyden
Hi, this is Dr. Nick on the incrementalist here with incremental insights for better business better health.
Fred Goldstein
And I’m Fred Dorsey with Accountable Health here helping employers health plans and health care systems with their population health improvement programs. And we are now at episode 100. Doctor Nick, unbelievable, incredible period of time to do this, obviously, and an incredible number of episodes. So I think in this one, what we really want to try to do is talk about what we’ve learned is this will be our last episode, as I understand discussing COVID specifically, right? How’d you like to start off with this topic?
Nick van Terheyden
Well, so um, I, I tried to look back and think about what I learned, first of all, it’s not easy to produce something once a week. It requires effort and work. And, you know, I think you and I have put a lot into this, just in terms of research, making sure that we understand what’s going on trying to deliver value, I would pick off with, you know, my first rule of anything, which is always have fun, I used to say this as a coach, if you’re not having fun, it’s not worth doing. So I’ve actually really enjoyed it. I hope other people have enjoyed, you know, we’ve tried to inject a little bit of humor, bring some knowledge and insights. But as I look back, what did I really learn about, you know, the things that went on? And one of the things that I would say is, you really can’t underestimate resistance. I mean, people have a natural flow, you know, they’re always looking to, you know, do the things the way that they always did. And, you know, we just expected people would absorb all of this and say, right, yes, we should do that. But that’s not what happened, right?
Fred Goldstein
No, it’s been interesting with that. And obviously, some of that was due to politics. And this became a political game, not game, I should say, but a political endeavor much more than a medical one, in many ways. And that made it very interesting to watch, as you talked about people accepting or unaccepting of various points of view.
Nick van Terheyden
And the other thing that sort of dropped out of that is that I think forcing people is not the way to go. And maybe that’s not true in other countries. But here in the United States of America, freedom is a right, you know, it’s it’s the Bill of Rights, all of those things sort of contribute. And whilst we would love to mandate things, and you know, based on science and the facts, as we understood them, mandates didn’t work, in fact, I think worked against us in many instances, and finding a better way to bring people along so that the consensus is and then, you know, you find that people are following the appropriate behavior.
Fred Goldstein
Yeah, I think that issue then leads to something around behavioral economics, we saw a bit of that used in terms of trying to get raffles or big winnings for getting your vaccines and things versus mandates. And I agree with you completely. While I was one who originally might have said, Man, we need to hammer this baby home mandated. Obviously, that’s not the right approach. And that would have been a mistake. And what’s shown to be a mistake and a couple of situations where they tried to do that in a broader context, although it did work within individual groups or things like that.
Nick van Terheyden
Yeah. Isn’t it interesting, we had sort of lottery and, you know, prize winnings and so forth to to get vaccinated who would have thought?
Fred Goldstein
Right, right. You know, and along with that, this whole issue of trusted voices, and who do you trust? And then, as you mentioned, numerous times, digging even deeper than that,
Nick van Terheyden
right? Yeah, no. So trust is an imperative. And I think you can, it’s really important not to break trust, it’s, it’s one of those things that you get one chance at this. I hope that people have come to trust our voices and trust the insights that we’ve delivered. And part of generating that trust is to be authentic and honest about opinions. I think we had, you know, I could certainly look back at some of the things that we talked about that I wouldn’t say were wrong, but we learnt better about and I’ll give you a perfect example. You know, surfaces we did a lot of detail on surfaces, you know, how long the virus survived, you know, and it was long standing on metal, I think it was but your cardboard box and, you know, this was actually a thing. And at this point, the science is very clear. And that’s the thing about science is it’s not linear, it doesn’t sort of go you know, in steady progress, we sort of learn in fits and starts and it can be you know, separated in time. And I think it’s important to accept that, you know, that opinion was not it was appropriate at the time we were doing the best that was you You know, the best available option, as I talked about is always available perfect almost never is. And at the time, that was the right thing, I think what we need to do is to look back now and say, Okay, we don’t need to have these robots cleaning planes. You know, to be clear, I actually don’t think they’re cleaning planes anymore. But they keep saying they are soft, you know, my gym, my goodness, I couldn’t pick up the weights for the gunk that was on. So the spraying down, we don’t need that, you know, you can just be regular clean as it were.
Fred Goldstein
Right. And and also another point that you made that I thought was really good. Was this idea of going deeper and finding the source data?
Nick van Terheyden
Yeah, that was one of the critical things that I learned about myself. I mean, I think, you know, social media especially, has a tendency to make you a little bit more superficial retweet. And, you know, they’ve tried to introduce this irritating notification, would you like to read that article first, which, to me, because I have read it, that’s how I came to this thing. I don’t need to track my links. But that’s a whole separate thing. But no, that’s exactly right. Go read the source information, to understand what somebody was saying. Because what actually appears in the headlines sometimes bears little to no relevance to the actual article and the conclusion that came about from the science.
Fred Goldstein
Yeah, one of your favorite terms that I saw often coming around as we were discussing things on the backside, you know, through our messaging apps was clickbait.
Nick van Terheyden
It’s, it’s really sad, but you, I have said very clearly to my family that, you know, when when they bury me, or do whatever they’re going to do, I want on my headstone, follow the money. And you know what I mean by that as incentive, and in the case of the media, then money is based on your eyeballs and following and people watching. And if you get people to do that, then you’re doing your job. That’s not the same as transmitting information, knowledge, or indeed science. And there are people whose whole job it is, is to come up with a headline that grabs you, it does actually a science around this, and I’ll be honest, I’ve tried to use it. I know some of the I try and use it honestly, like a scientist.
Fred Goldstein
Sure. It’s great. You know, I think as I look back on this thing, you know, early on surfaces we talked about, but it was aerosolized people maybe kept that information off a little bit, although they might have known it. And I think that really required us to change our thinking. And on a go forward basis, change our thinking, and you’ve talked about hermetically sealed buildings, I mean, HEPA filters, obviously, something really worthwhile. Outside Air is really worthwhile and things like that. I think you’re things you’ll see in the future.
Nick van Terheyden
Yeah. And you know, and I know you’re a fan of sci fi, every time I used to walk into a building, I’d hear that, like you did in Star Trek that the doors weren’t going like this. This was me just trying to pull it open. That’s a hermetically seal building, which is not good for your health. Let’s be clear.
Fred Goldstein
Absolutely. You know, and speaking of Star Trek, you know, is might say it’s a virus gym, not some made up thing that doesn’t exist. And I hope everybody today understands COVID is real viruses real, it’s out there. It has various impacts on people. We’ve gotten better because of the vaccines and things but it’s something we still need to watch in the future. And as many have mentioned, there’ll be other pandemics. And hopefully, we’ve learned some good lessons from this to apply to that.
Nick van Terheyden
Yeah. And I hope those people that have come along, listened in I hope we’ve provided some useful information, trying to tease out some of the science and you know, indeed, entertained a little bit as well.
Fred Goldstein
Yeah, thanks so much. It’s really been a great 100 episodes. I’ve enjoyed the heck out of it. As you said, it’s been fun. It’s great work with you, Nick. I know we’re gonna continue on and do some different topics and things as we go forward each week. But thanks, everyone, for listening. This is Fred Goldstein with Accountable Health. If you’d like more information, please go to Accountable Health. llc.com
Nick van Terheyden
and this is Dr. Nick on the incrementalist with incremental insights for better business, better health.
